Friday, November 13, 2009

Seeing a star to the West, how did the Persian "wise men" know a "King" would be born in Israel?

Matthew 2:1 "Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,


Matthew 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him."

Seeing a star to the West, how did the Persian "wise men" know a "King" would be born in Israel?
They studied the scriptures, thats how they knew, and this is why they were called wise men, because they knew the scriptures,





Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.





1Ki 4:30 And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt.





Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.





Num 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.





Amo 5:8 Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name:





Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.





And the star they saw, was indeed an angel, for angels are called stars,





Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Reply:Where does it say they were Persian?





A side note on the Star.....stars dont stop in mid orbit and shine a light down on earth.....so, was a real star?
Reply:They looked it up in there Wise Men Almanac of course.
Reply:Well, I'm not sure they were Persian. We only know that they came from the east.





They were most likely members of the ten lost tribes of Israel or other Semites who had had prophets of their own or had retained some ancient prophecies that we either lost or never had. The appearance of a new "star," apparently brighter than most and that behaved in odd ways, was a fulfillment of that prophecy.





I might point out that Jesus was a "child" living in a house when the wise men arrived, and Herod (just to make sure) had all the baby boys in Bethlehem under the age of two slaughtered. I would hazard a guess that it took the wise men about a year to equip their caravan and make their way west. I don't think it would take even me a year to walk from Persia to Palestine (under optimal conditions, anyway).





Arriving in Jerusalem, they demanded to meet the child who was born King of the Jews. Herod was not displeased that non-Jews knew about the subject. He even had his scriptural scholars search for the location of the Lord's birthplace. He was in fact an Edomite, not a Jew, and he ruled with iron and blood. He wasn't about to let an upstart start a seditious movement. He'd already had plenty of trouble with seditionists (which he greatly deserved, by the way).





After finding Jesus and his mother and stepfather, the wise men, warned of God to depart unbeknownst to Herod, returned to their homeland(s) to bear witness that the Savior of mankind had been born.





The "star" must have been some kind of hot air or helium balloon (or possibly a shining angel who was too far away for identification), because it "went before" the wise men on their way to Bethlehem (and probably on their journey). Now I'm not sure, but I think Bethlehem is south and east from Jerusalem, and I'd like to see any star, especially a supernova, move east or south across the sky.
Reply:I'm guessing they were remnants/descendants of the wise men that the Prophet Daniel had been put in charge of during the Babylonian Empire, and that there was a prophecy (possibly by Daniel) passed down to them not recorded in the Book of Daniel and now lost to us.
Reply:One conjecture is as astrologers (magi) that they saw the conjunction of the planets Jupiter and Venus near the star Regulus (in the constellation of Leo). The astrological meaning would be to announce that a deity was born as king to the Jews. Leo, the Lion, and the Jews were connected in meaning. Regulus - by name - is the king star. Royalty claiming deity was not an unusual thing. Also, the Jewish writings predicting the star at the birth of the Messiah were readily available to the Persians. Venus and Jupiter after the sun and the moon are the two brightest lights/stars in the sky. Their conjunction is very unusual and would be visually spectacular.





The conjunction happened around June 17, 2 BC in the western sky. The dating of Herod's death may not fit precisely, so the idea is still an educated guess. But something of the meaning described above happened that got the attention of the astrologers but not so much Herod and the "regular" non-star-gazing folk.





Edit: The Bible does not say the Magi followed the star on their travels from the East. It does say that they saw the star again after they left Jerusalem for Bethlehem and that the star "went ahead of them". Around Dec. 25, 2 BC Jupiter appeared in the Southern sky just before dawn. (Bethlehem is directly south of Jerusalem).
Reply:Well, they did see it from the east and were from the east. There were non-scriptural references to the event which the stargazers or astrologers knew about.





Herod was a Jew and was very upset that those outside Judaism knew such a thing and recognized the signs of the birth.





It is also likely that it was a nova or supernova that marked the arrival.
Reply:some people say when Daniel was taken captive to Babylon, he gave a prophecy that in a certain constellation (maybe virgo/ coma bernices) that when a bright star appears, thats when the messiah will come into this world.





the wise men are different from the magi/astrologers:


if you read carefully you will notice that when Jesus was born, the wise men/shepards came to him the night he was born(luke 2:8-16). and the magi came to him a long time after he was born, after speaking to Herod (mathew chp2). the magi came to Josephs HOUSE(mat2:11) and the wise men came to the manger(lk2:16).
Reply:From my understanding, they all were astrologers and had been charting this event for a long time.
Reply:For that matter how could anyone fallow a star.... It can't exactly lead you to any point on the earth, would be like trying to catch up with a rainbow.
Reply:The jews were in exile for around 50 years from 587 to 533 bce and the wise men became familure with OT prophesy of the Messiah. The exile was in babylon which was overcome by Persia around 540 or so
Reply:they were astronomers (not to be confused with astrologers), and they knew that the new star appearing fulfilled a prophecy.
Reply:Many historians regard the star not as a historial event, but as a pious fiction intended to tell the story of Jesus in the context of the fulfilment of prophecy. In his detailed 1993 study of the birth narratives, The Birth of the Messiah, Raymond E. Brown challenged the traditional view: "those who wish to maintain the historicity of the Matthean magi story are faced with nigh insuperable obstacles". [40] He specifies three: firstly, the intrinsic unlikelihood of the story, with unparalleled and yet unrecorded astronomical phenomena and contradictory details of the actions of King Herod; secondly, the difficulty of reconciling the Matthew account with that given in the Gospel of Luke, which makes no mention of the magi or the massacre; and thirdly, apparent conflicts with other details given in the Gospels of the ministry of Jesus (for example, the statement that all of Jerusalem was startled by the birth of the King of the Jews, compared with later ignorance of Jesus or his birth in Bethlehem)."





There are other problems associated with this star / birth . Historical records !First of all there is no mention of Nazareth existing until 2 A.D. There are no accounts of a census or the massacre that occured afterward . The area of Galilee was not under Roman control so there would be no reason to attend a tax census . And the Romans taxed on land ownership not head count . There are other lacking documents .
Reply:Magi- ( Mathew 2:1-2) were scholars in ancient Persia. Most think the Magi had studied the Jewish scriptures and connected the star with Numbers 24: 17.





There are many scriptures in the OT about Jesus birth and where abouts as well. Perhaps they had studied these in great detail.
Reply:they used yahoo maps.............lol just kidding,,,,,,,,,,okay where does it say they were persian..........


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